Legislature(2001 - 2002)
02/12/2002 01:36 PM Senate TRA
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SB 226-HIGHWAY DESIGN & CONSTRUCTION
SENATOR DONLEY explained current federal highway requirements for
utilization of federal funds require projects be designed for at
least 20 years. He said the actual terminology they are relying
on said 20 to 30 years. That was a reasonable goal when it began
but now there is so much time from when projects are actually
designed to when they are actually constructed the useful years
of projects in many metropolitan areas are down to about twelve
and sometimes only eight years. So they are really not getting
the twenty years of life on road projects. This bill was an
effort to design projects for 30 years and hopefully get 20 years
of real life on them.
The intent of the legislation was not for resurfacing or
maintenance projects but when building major new roads and major
upgrades of existing roads. He said anybody could see the
problem that occurred by looking at the left turn lane portions.
Where there is a designated left turn holding area, time and time
again before it is upgraded, there is traffic backed up blocking
other traffic because there is no more room in the left turn
lanes. Those were supposed to have been designed to last 20
years and are not lasting that long. They are being designed
consistent with the policy of 20 years but are not built for
eight and sometimes twelve years after the design.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY said Tudor and Lake Otis are good examples.
SENATOR DONLEY said he hoped the members would adopt the
Committee Substitute (CS). It clarified the 30-year design was
for metropolitan areas because the problem is not on the distance
roads or in smaller communities. In metropolitan areas where
tremendous traffic growth occurred it would be wise to design the
roads to last longer. He left the Department of Transportation
and Public Facilities (DOTPF) to better define those metropolitan
areas. The CS narrowed it down to the metropolitan areas and
clarified it is not for resurfacing projects.
SENATOR TAYLOR made a motion to adopt the Committee Substitute.
Hearing no objection, the CS for SSSB 226 was adopted.
SENATOR ELTON asked how metropolitan areas would be defined in
the CS.
SENATOR DONLEY said DOTPF had some concerns that there were
portions of the state highway system where a 30-year planning
period was not appropriate. He said the Commissioner of DOTPF
felt in high traffic areas in cities this made a lot of sense.
He wanted to leave it to the expertise of DOTPF to define
metropolitan area and have some flexibility on the part of the
planners. He had considered some ideas such as, "in a
municipality," but that didn't work because there are some big
municipalities such as Juneau and Anchorage.
SENATOR ELTON said it seemed if they increased the standards for
both design and construction they are increasing the possibility
there could be budgetary impacts. It would require much more
coordination between local municipal officials and state
officials and that would have a cost. Trying to figure out what
the future is going to look like in 30 years may induce a
tendency to over design rather than under design.
SENATOR DONLEY said some communities were doing a really good job
communicating with the state and some needed to work on that. He
was not sure there was going to be a cost so much as people
needed to be talking to each other more.
He explained most of the highway or road construction budget is
driven by Federal Highway Funds. That limits what they can spend
unless they started spending General Funds, which they had not
done for several years. Federal Highway Funds come in each year
and are allocated through the Statewide Transportation
Improvement Program (STIP). He said if there was a different
design criterion they might do fewer projects but with no
additional spending unless they went to some other financing
forum for those projects. There might be a revamping of the STIP
with fewer things getting done from year to year but the things
they did do would last longer. That meant they would not come
back and do them again so it would save money over time.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY asked Mr. Poshard from DOTPF if there would be
added cost for construction of highways and roads when they are
planned for 30 years. He gave the Tudor Road upgrade and the
Glen Highway upgrades as examples.
He also asked when right-of-way is acquired is that with thoughts
of 30 or 40 years out or is that immediate.
DENNIS POSHARD, Special Assistant, Department of Transportation
and Public Facilities, said Senator Donley was correct in that it
would not increase spending per say but it might increase the
cost of a particular project. When you design for a 30-year life
of a project verses a 20-year life you start considering things
like five lane verses three lane.
He said there were quite a few issues associated with right-of-
way acquisition. DOTPF had some uncertainty of how this bill
would actually affect right-of-way acquisition.
MR. POSHARD said DOTPF had some concerns about how projects are
designed and built. He thought this bill did not necessarily fix
some of those problems and created some other unintended
consequences. They had spoken with Senator Donley's staff
several times to try and iron out some of those issues and they
were not quite there yet but they were working on it.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY said the Glen Highway was a good example because
they added lanes from time to time. He wanted to know how far
out the original plan went and did they have to acquire right-of-
way to add lanes or was that in the original plan.
MICHAEL DOWNING, Chief Engineer, Department of Transportation and
Public Facilities, said they currently use a 20-year horizon.
They design a project to last 20 years from the date it is open
to use by the public. That is DOTPF policy and the guidance they
have under American Association of State Highway and
Transportation Officials (ASHTO). It is what the Federal Highway
Administration would like to see them do as well. They are
currently acquiring right-of-way and constructing for a 20-year
horizon.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY asked about a 30-year horizon. He asked if he
felt 20 years was their best guess at what was going to be
needed.
MR. DOWNING said you have less certainty as to the accuracy of
what you are predicting as you go further out in time.
You then get into situations such as acquiring right-
of-way and saying to people, to the public or to a
business owner that you project a need in 30 years to
need the property that they're on, consequently you
want to take it today. That is a difficult thing for
us to do.
MR. DOWNING said the public has the right to challenge the
necessity of an acquisition and that is a good thing and that is
how the statutes read. When they project out 30 years and have
information that the further out you go the more speculative it
is the harder it will be for them to prove necessity.
MR. POSHARD gave an example of how the kind of thing Mr. Downing
described might come into play. They are working on a project in
Senator Wilken's area. Cushman Street is in need of a major
upgrade. He talked with DOTPF engineers about traffic counts,
type of traffic, volume of traffic and the geometric design for
that project. He said if they project out for 20 years it is
right at the cusp and right on the bubble of going from a three
lane, one lane each way with a turn lane in the center, to a five
lane with a turn land in the center. If they project out 30
years there is no question that becomes a five lane, two in each
direction with a center turn lane. That creates for DOTPF an
issue of right-of-way acquisition. With a three-lane facility
right-of-way acquisition has a reasonably small affect on
businesses and residences along that street. When you go to a
five-lane facility there are quite a few businesses significantly
impacted in terms of parking. DOTPF would have to buy out and
shut down some businesses. It made sense to pre-acquire right-
of-way and to plan ahead but the issue they get into is can they
prove necessity. They have to use eminent domain procedures to
try and take that property because the business owner may not
want to sell and does not think they need it.
The other issue is with the Federal Government. Since they
require a 20-year horizon for design and construction it is
unclear whether they would choose to participate in a 30-year
project versus a 20-year project. DOTPF had never done that kind
of a project before and never pushed that envelope with the
Federal Government to see. They know federal dollars would pay
for 3 lanes but are unsure if they would pay for 5 lanes.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he understood why Senator Donley was there.
He said after years of funding it and waiting for it to be
designed, they see a project go forward. The public was
contemplating a major rebuild of a road but they see something
that widens it to new federal specifications and meets certain
federal standards. He gave the example of Chena Pump Road. It
was a very expensive major project and everybody in the community
was assuming they were going to have four lanes. They ended up
with three lanes so they still have the same two-lane street with
a suicide lane in the middle. The cut going up the hill is more
than adequate for future expansion. He talked to the people on
the project and heard they were going to build four lanes. He
said it was a make work project for DOTPF five years from now
they will be back into the process.
SENATOR TAYLOR said in the last few years they pumped just over
$600,000,000 into the Glen Highway. The Glen Highway is improved
and everybody is driving 70 mph on it. They come roaring into
Anchorage to go to work and run into gridlock because the
Anchorage Metropolitan Area Transportation Study (AMATS) can not
figure out they are at the end of a major arterial and should be
coordinating their planning. DOTPF does not seem to take that
into consideration as they pour traffic into the town. He
thought there were a couple of easy ways to solve the problem.
The Governor and Lieutenant Governor are doing everything they
can to accomplish killing this economy so they are not going to
have to worry about a whole lot of cars on these streets anymore.
They will just have state workers driving to and from their jobs.
The private sector is going to go down the tubes like they have
in his district. They have far to many people turning left in
the state all ready.
SENATOR WARD said the point about putting a turn lane in the
middle also applied in Anchorage and other parts of the state.
He asked Mr. Downing if they went to 30 year planning would it
force DOTPF to come up with some longer-term plans such as the
amount of people that are coming in from the valley or being able
to drive out of Juneau. He said instead of just thinking about
more money to make one more bike path or one more lane would they
actually think in terms of 30 or 50 years. Would they think
about traffic patterns instead of just reacting to an emergency
turn lane on the corner of Lake Otis and Tudor. He said they
were limiting themselves in the ability to actually really plan.
He said on Mountain View Drive the government came in and blocked
th
off entire roads and put trees down the middle of 15 Avenue,
the reason was beyond his comprehension. He said they are not
going to force people to ride public buses. He asked if this
bill would help start the process of looking past a little window
to actually planning a state as they should be planning it.
MR. DOWNING said the planning portion of this did not concern
him. He understood the bill was for design and construction.
Designing and constructing for the longer-term horizon was a
different issue than planning out for that horizon. He explained
when they first started working with Senator Donley's staff they
thought maybe there was a way of amending the Title 19 Statutes
on planning and come up with a way of looking out further ahead.
The problem they encountered was when they called the Federal
Highway Administration and asked if there was a concern in doing
that. It was a fairly new question for the administrator and he
had not had time to research it but he was able to point to the
U.S. Code where it says for metropolitan planning they will use a
20 year forecast period. It is not ambiguous it says 20 years.
SENATOR WARD said he would restate the question. He asked if you
are talking about a highway up in Fairbanks that is three lanes
and if you take a longer approach you know it is going to be five
lanes would not logic tell you that maybe they should look at an
alternative route. He said a new road was a strange concept
since he had been there. Nobody talked about new roads they just
keep fattening up the ones they had and then put trees in the
middle of them. He said wouldn't it make sense if they know
there is going to be this amount of traffic in 30 years they
should make another route or a by-pass like other cities have
done. He thought new roads were a step in the right direction.
He asked for the name of the administrator Mr. Downing had talked
to.
MR. DOWNING said the Alaska Administrator of Highways is Dave
Miller. He is in Juneau.
SENATOR WARD said you cannot drive out of Juneau. If you plan 30
years in advance you will be able to drive out or here.
SENATOR ELTON wanted to express his dismay to his good friends
Dennis Poshard and Michael Downing. He did not realize they were
doops of this administrative conspiracy to kill the economy and
he wanted them to know they were no longer invited into his
office for a cup of tea until they could explain themselves.
He asked Mr. Downing if he understood him to say the current
practice is 20 years out from the time the public first uses the
facility.
MR. DOWNING said that was right.
SENATOR ELTON asked the net effect of this legislation, which
says you just plan 30 years out, assuming the clock starts
ticking when you begin the planning process.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY clarified that the STIP tells how far out
different projects are.
SENATOR ELTON asked when would the 30-year clock start ticking.
MR. POSHARD said currently when they design a project the
engineer works with the planning office to come up with a traffic
projection. They look at the historical traffic counts for the
particular route. They look at the types of traffic, whether it
is heavy trucks or just cars commuting and a lot of other
statistics. They come up with modeling projections for 20 years
plus the time they expect to design and construct that project.
When they start they are designing for the traffic projection
that might be 26, 27 or 28 years out. It is their best estimate
on when that project is going to be done and constructed.
Construction plus 20 is what they are shooting for.
SENATOR ELTON said the way he read the bill it said you plan for
30 years from the time you start the planning process. The net
affect of this bill could be adding another three years onto the
life of the project.
MR. POSHARD said that was not exactly correct. The CS talks
about the plans and specifications for proposed major upgrades.
Plans and specifications mean the completed design paperwork that
goes out to bid to a contractor. So the plans and specifications
the contractor would receive for construction purposes would be
for 30 years. If they take two years for construction then that
might be 28 years. That would be going from 20 to 28 years.
FRANK DILLON, Executive Vice President, Alaska Trucking
Association, supported SSSB 226. He said his understanding of
the bill and the process behind it was to extend the planning
horizon so they have a longer useful life when a major
construction project takes place. They would like to see a
longer life expectancy to the projects constructed in Alaska.
Some things could change as result of using a 30 horizon, which
might make a particular project more expensive but at the same
time that expense might be looked at as an investment because it
is "either pay me know or pay me later for it."
He said when he first arrived in Alaska he was amazed to hear
there was an actual program of differed maintenance at DOTPF.
Because they could not use federal money for maintenance they
simply did not maintain or repair the roads until they denigrated
to such a point the Federal Government declared them unusable.
Then they were allowed to reconstruct them using federal money.
He said he came from other states where they did not use differed
maintenance other than as a term for something that they need to
fix but had not gotten around to.
He served on the Anchorage Metropolitan Area Transportation Study
(AMATS) Technical Committee as Chairman of the Citizens Air
Quality Advisory Committee. They work with the AMATS Coordinator
updating the STIP. He explained long-range transportation
planning in AMATS is a 23-year program because the Federal
Government requires they update every three years. So that adds
three years to a 20-year program. They are trying to look out 23
years to provide for useful transportation infrastructure.
MR. DILLON said it was a good thing to be looking 30 years ahead
of time. He said people had done some of the planning in
Anchorage and other areas of the state out 30 years ahead of time
and as a result they had a useful transportation system.
He said they have gridlock in Anchorage now where dozens of
intersections are at the point of failure or will be at the point
of failure in the next couple of years. No matter how fast they
build or how much money they get they are not going to catch up
for an awful long time to where those are actually useful and
safe.
MR. DILLON said the modeling for traffic engineering projects is
better than 10 or 20 years ago. He said DOTPF is using 26, 27,
or 28 years worth of planning for projects because the clock
starts when the project is finished.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY asked how long it took to design a project like
some of the recent projects in Anchorage. He asked if there is a
rule of thumb and what is the design life.
MR. DOWNING said the design of the project is one of the easier
pieces. Getting through the environmental process and the right-
of-way acquisitions is much more difficult. It runs sequentially
because you cannot acquire properties that would prejudice your
decision in the environmental document. Once those steps are
completed all they have is the preliminary design necessary to
support the decisions they made up to that point. That is what
the federal program will allow them to expend. At that point the
hard design to create the plans and specifications is a
relatively quick process. The Million Dollar Bridge took six
months.
SENATOR WARD asked about the time required for the whole process
of a project. He wanted an example from the last five years,
where they started with dirt and now there is a road.
MR. DOWNING asked if he was including the environmental document
and the right-of-way acquisitions.
SENATOR WARD said yes and he wanted to know which project it was.
MR. DOWNING said for the Parks Highway and some of the projects
in and around the Wasilla area the design was taking about a year
and a half.
SENATOR WARD wanted him to address new roads.
MR. DOWNING said the C Street extension from Dimond to O'Malley
is not built and is a phased project.
SENATOR WARD asked how long had they been working on the one that
is not built.
MR. DOWNING said it was not in hard design.
SENATOR WARD asked for one they had built in the last five years.
MR. POSHARD said other than the Whittier Tunnel he did not know
of any new roads.
SENATOR WARD said that was why he was asking and why he was
serious about the 30-year planning. If they know five roads in
Anchorage are going to have to go to five lanes then logic would
th
say maybe they should punch 68 all the way through or maybe
they should have a by-pass like other cities have done. For the
amount of money it takes to go from three to five lanes if they
are planning 30 years maybe they should have a route that goes
around a community like other cities.
MR. DOWNING said in terms of hard design all of their projects
can be done in a year and a half. The environmental process the
permitting process and right-of-way acquisitions are the time
consuming parts.
SENATOR WARD asked if DOTPF is going to bring forth some
legislation so they can streamline the process.
MR. POSHARD said they would not be bringing forward any
legislative proposals before the state. They had had
conversations with their congressional delegation because those
are things dictated by federal law, the National Environmental
Policy Act of 1969 (NEPA) and by Federal Statutes. They hoped in
the next reauthorization bill their congressional delegation
could work on environmental streamlining and help to alleviate
some of the lengthy time it takes in the environmental process
and the permitting process.
SENATOR WARD asked if Mr. Poshard could give the committee a copy
of the suggested changes they submitted to Congressman Young. He
would like the committee to have them so they could help promote
those also.
MR. DOWNING said he was only familiar with what he had given the
commissioner and not familiar with what the commissioner had
given to Congressman Young. In essence it boiled down to two
things with the federal agencies and realistically the state
resource agencies. In T 21 there was Section 13.09, which is
environmental streamlining. It pointed all the effort at the
Secretary of Transportation to speed up these projects. It did
not speak to the other agencies it said the Secretary of
Transportation shall do all these things. That left the other
federal agencies less than compelled. What they really need
boiled down to two things. They need to be compelled and they
need to be enabled. That is financial as well as through changes
in Federal Statutes.
SENATOR WARD said he was not quite certain that Lloyd Jones had
received those requests yet. He asked if Mr. Downing could
submit copies of what he had given to the committee. He wanted
to help out.
MR. POSHARD said if there was something the commissioner had put
in writing he would see the committee got it.
MR. DILLON said hearings would begin in September on the rewrite
of the highway bill. Well over a year ago they were in contact
with the commissioner and provided some very good suggestions,
which were incorporated into a packet for the U.S. Transportation
Committee.
There are two major very powerful coalitions that have been
formed to work on two separate issues:
1. The NEPA process as it applies to highway construction is
being headed up by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and about
400 to 500 member organizations. They are working to find
language that would streamline the NEPA process in highway
construction projects.
2. Rewrite of the Highway Bill is being handled by the Highway
Users Alliance, a coalition of several hundred different
associations and industries.
He would mail to committee members what was submitted and would
be happy to keep them updated. The U.S. Congress would be asking
for testimony concerning the reauthorization of the Highway Bill
starting in September. They were looking for help to make sure
the 8.6 billion dollars deleted from next years Highway Bill is
put back in.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY said they are meeting with the General Schwartz
at Elmendorf Air Force Base and their engineering people on
Friday for a briefing on the Knik Arm Crossing. General Schwartz
wanted to work with them.
SENATOR DONLEY said he drives around his community and sees where
they built a road a few years ago and already the left turn lane
is packed and backed up. They have a statute to be deciding
these projects for 20 years and they don't last 20 years. He
first assumed the growth criteria were wrong but DOTPF said they
had the right criteria but the projects were not getting built in
a timely manner. The solution is to have projects designed for a
longer period of time because there is not much they can do to
get them built more timely because that is subject to federal
requirements. Title 23 Chapter 1 Section 106 C2 says the
authority for other than national highway system roads resides
with the state. So one thing they can do is extend the time
projects last. He said you could argue that it is going to cost
more to do a project that is going to lasts for 30 years. You
would be able to do more 20-year projects than 30-year projects.
SENATOR DONLEY said go ahead and build a road that lasts a longer
period of time because common sense tells you if you wait to do
those extra lanes that right-of-way is going to become more
valuable. It becomes more and more difficult and expensive the
longer you wait to deal with the problem. He wanted to continue
to work with DOTPF to work out the details. He said the
commissioner told him he thought they were headed in the right
direction with this bill.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY asked if DOTPF supported or opposed this bill.
TAPE 02-04, SIDE B
MR. POSHARD explained in its current form DOTPF opposed the
legislation. The commissioner expressed sympathy and interest in
Senator Donley's concerns and even agreed with some of them.
There was no question DOTPF wished that some previous
administration had said pre-acquire the right-of-way through
Wasilla. The projects going through that corridor on the Parks
Highway are costing fortunes compared to what many other projects
cost. It is an issue and they understand and do not disagree
with Senator Donley's concerns. The federal law governing it is
one that's been developed over the last 50 years and applies
nationally. They have a limited amount of wiggle room and are
still unclear whether or not this bill is going to create some
unintended consequences none of them want. He said if they
continue to work with Senator Donley and get the right answers
from the Federal Government then he did not know where they would
stand on the bill. In its current form and with what they know
they felt like they had to oppose the legislation.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY noted the Wasilla projects were very expensive.
He asked if he was wrong in saying DOTPF went ahead without the
knowledge of the full cost of the right-of-ways and there were
lawsuits that delayed the project.
MR. POSHARD said it is a phased project to upgrade the Parks
Highway through Wasilla, on the first portion DOTPF was caught
off guard by right-of-way acquisition costs in Wasilla.
SENATOR TAYLOR applauded Senator Donley on his effort. He said
his frustration was he did not think it was going to make much
difference in the long run. He said the design standard says a
bridge has to be designed to handle traffic for a road for 50
years. He wanted them to show him a bridge in that corridor that
lasted 50 years. He said they as a state need to set the policy.
He said DOTPF could have all the excuses they wanted about what
federal law required them to do but federal law did not set the
STIP and politically move the STIP every time it was convenient
to change a project. Federal law was not sitting there with
hundreds of millions of dollars in projects fully funded by the
legislature sitting on the shelf. He had not seen a new road
built in his district in 40 years. It was hard to believe
anybody was planning on doing anything in DOTPF other than make
work projects. He told a story about a bridge on I-5.
SENATOR WARD moved CSSSSB 226 out of committee with individual
recommendations.
SENATOR ELTON said he objected just for the purpose of a comment.
He said he was probably going to be a no recommendation on this
bill. He did not disagree with where they were trying to get.
The trouble he had and hoped would see addressed as the bill
progressed through was that it is really difficult to look 30
years out in advance. He said to put that in perspective he was
going to look back 30 years. It would have been asking an awful
lot of anybody, whether they were designing projects in Anchorage
or Wasilla or Juneau or Ketchikan, back 30 years ago to try and
project what the needs were going to be 30 years out in the
future.
He gave the example of the second crossing they are beginning to
talk about and really need that cuts across the wetlands to
Douglas. When he first served on the assembly the second
crossing was a dream in two or three people's minds. They now
know the incredible difference it would make but the people who
were working on the North Douglas Highway would have had no idea
the impacts the second crossing might make on traffic patterns
and traffic flows. He said he did not disagree with where they
were trying to get but he was going to be a no recommendation for
now. He said maybe somebody could help him over the image he had
of what they were like as a state and a community 30 years ago
and the potential financial burden they are placing on the state
when they try to anticipate what the needs are going to be 30
years out in the future.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY said he built his house in 1968 and is still
living in it. Many of the major shopping centers in Anchorage
were built back in the 60's and 70's and are still being
utilized. In the private sector there are plans that go pretty
far out in time.
SENATOR TAYLOR said there were people in Juneau 40 and 50 years
ago that said to build the road across to North Douglas. They
should have had the crossing 30 years ago and the whole north of
the island would be developed.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY asked for a roll call. All voted Yea. There
being no objection, the motion carried and CSSSSB 226 (TRA) was
moved out of committee with individual recommendations.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|